On the ‘Burqa Ban’
Today, France banned the burqa. Let’s be clear about what that means…France has banned not only the oppressive Afghan burqa, but also any form of facial covering, usually referred to as niqaab or the “face veil.” While traditional in various places from Afghanistan to Saudi Arabia, the niqaab is considered by most–but not all–to be an “extra” in Islam, not mandatory, but pleasing to God.
Before I comment on the law, let me say that I personally find the idea of covering my face to be about as oppressive as I imagine Heidi Montag’s ridiculous silicone breast implants to be. Both, to me, seem like prisons, capable only of holding me back. Martha Nussbaum, in her recent New York Times column, makes a similar comparison, stating:
A Catalonian legislator recently called the burqa a “degrading prison.” The first thing we should say about this argument is that the people who make it typically don’t know much about Islam and would have a hard time saying what symbolizes what in that religion. But the more glaring flaw in the argument is that society is suffused with symbols of male supremacy that treat women as objects. Sex magazines, nude photos, tight jeans — all of these products, arguably, treat women as objects, as do so many aspects of our media culture. And what about the “degrading prison” of plastic surgery? Every time I undress in the locker room of my gym, I see women bearing the scars of liposuction, tummy tucks, breast implants. Isn’t much of this done in order to conform to a male norm of female beauty that casts women as sex objects? Proponents of the burqa ban do not propose to ban all these objectifying practices. Indeed, they often participate in them.
Nussbaum’s column, incidentally, is advocating for an end to such bans. I wholeheartedly agree (with that point, though not the entirety of her column). I’ve heard Muslim friends speak out against face veiling time and time again, and when they say it, I sit back and listen, take it all in. But when it comes from a white male? That’s patriarchy I just can’t get with.
The problem is that those advocating for such bans consider neither the feelings of the Muslim woman nor the repercussions of such a ban. Their assumption is that any woman shrouded in black must have been forced to do so (a rather incorrect assumption: try googling “proud niqaabi” and you’ll see what I mean). They are not concerned with women’s feelings, they are concerned merely with “liberating” such women…which for your average Sarkozy type probably means removing them from the burqa and placing them into a tailored suit with 4-inch heels. No thanks.
The second, less considered issue, are the repercussions such bans create. What exactly will be the punishment for wearing a burqa on the French street? Will the woman be arrested, or will her burqa be torn off? In either case, what type of punishment might she face at home?
Or will these bans simply force niqaab-wearing women off the street and into their homes, sequestered from society? How is that possibly better than their being able to roam comfortably in public?
I imagine that Sarkozy types believe that banning niqaab will simply “free” these women, pushing them to stand up to their husbands. Maybe they imagine that such women will not only take off their niqaab, but their hijab too, and become a “normal part of society.”
More likely, they’re not concerned with women at all, but rather with assuaging growing irrational European fears of dhimmitude and the caliphate. And just as likely, these bans will have little or no positive effect on the women they’re supposed to “help.”
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13.07.2010zunguzungu
“free” these women, pushing them to stand up to their husbands/
Exactly. Such courage on the part of Sarkozy: rather than gave the oppressed women he imagines himself to be liberating any actual resources with which to use in whatever struggles they might be embarked on, he simply and bravely forces marginalized women of color to do all the work themselves, unaided, and soak up all the consequences from both the rock and the hard place they’re stuck in between. You don’t even have to talk about the women who choose to wear the niqaab; even if you grant that every single one of them is in a violence filled, loveless marriage to a tyrant who imprisons her every day, the idea that making the niqaab illegal will do anything but add to this hypothetical woman’s suffering is preposterous.
13.07.2010Jillian
Holy rapid response, Batman!
Very well said, regardless of formatting error ;) Thanks!
13.07.2010zunguzungu
Oops. html formatting fail.
13.07.2010Gabriela
Allow me the off topic: nice new profile picture!
:D
13.07.2010Jillian
Thank you! One further insult of the photo in a comment yesterday prompted me to finally change it!
15.07.2010Dweller
The way I believe this is being legislated is that the women receive a fine of maybe 1-200 Euros, maybe less. But there is a back-end, where those thought to responsible for the transgression (husbands-fathers?) are charged tens of thousands of Euros. So it’s got barbs on both ends.
I’m not sure your argument can be made so clearly; surely not so neatly. You suggest that there are many happy, happy niqaab- wearing women out there. Hmmm. There are many that might have said slavery suited them just fine – yes, no kidding. House slaves in the south might have said just so. The socialization of their situation made a terrible situation correct *in their minds* but several steps away, that socialized right was clearly wrong.
Nowhere in Islam is it required for head-coverings, far less for complete face coverings such as those legislated against here. The ‘better in the eyes of God’ argument is facetious but really not worthy of debate here. It is clearly “custom” and as such the rightness and wrongness is a bit more complex. Here they are trying to prevent a custom that they believe (they being the French legislature) is inherently wrong. Would legislating to prevent female genital mutilation, which it could be argued is a similar issue differing only in degree, elicit a cheer?
It’s hard to say exactly how to stop something that may have roots that are oppressive. But it’s clear that there are *some* roots of the niqaab situation that are oppressive. While there may be women who say “I just love my niqaab” I think their responses have to be put through the filter mentioned above. They cannot be accepted without some analysis behind the ‘why’ of the response. Indeed, neither the ‘love’ nor ‘hate’ should be really.
Bottom line: I don’t think you should so easily dismiss the French solution, if it can be called such. It’s a complex issue and they are trying to find ways out of it. They want liberty for all quite frankly, and while this seems like a backwards approach on the surface, its final result might be just that. Let’s check back on this social experiment in a year and see what it’s yielded.
BTW, there was a strong movement to liberate the burqa-wearing masses of the truly oppressed Afghan women. I’d be curious to know if sentiments like you express against the French situation are the same for the Afgans. And if not, why not.
15.07.2010Jillian
Thanks for your comment. I’ll try to address the most important points.
You suggest that there are many happy, happy niqaab- wearing women out there. Hmmm.
Yep, and a lot of them are Western converts who write in flawless English (I’ve been tracking that segment of the blogosphere for awhile for various other reasons). I find that particularly damaging to any possibility of actually eradicating the niqaab in the long run.
In any case, Muslim women who wear the niqaab by choice (be they a tiny minority or not) do believe they are doing right by God, as do women who wear the hijab (head scarf) and Jewish men who wear the kippah, and Christians who wear…whatever Christians wear. I don’t believe that a distinction should be made between what religious dress certain Western males think is appropriate and those that they don’t. You either accept personal religious freedom or you do not.
Nowhere in Islam is it required for head-coverings, far less for complete face coverings such as those legislated against here.
Not exactly. There’s a pretty fierce debate amongst Islamic scholars as to whether or not the head covering is required. It’s not so cut and dry, as you imply here. In any case, one glance at Egypt suggests that most Muslim women would disagree with your assertion.
They want liberty for all quite frankly
In what universe does liberty for all prohibit Muslim women from dressing as they (may or may not) wish?
Also, why didn’t you address my final points? I think it’s quite valid to think that there could be some serious negative ramifications of such a ban. Those women who are being forced to wear niqaab could very well face serious trouble at home for choosing to go out without it, or for wearing it and receiving a monetary fine. There is little to no thought about the ramifications for those women, either for their emotional being, or for external factors which could do them more harm.
Bottom line: I don’t think you should so easily dismiss the French solution, if it can be called such. It’s a complex issue and they are trying to find ways out of it. They want liberty for all quite frankly, and while this seems like a backwards approach on the surface, its final result might be just that. Let’s check back on this social experiment in a year and see what it’s yielded.
Let’s give it a year, sure. But how much do you think the French are going to follow up with those >2,000 women who ever wore it in the first place? Will there be home visits to ensure that they are, in fact, still alive and leaving the house at all? Or will they simply be forgotten, now that the eyesore of the burqa is off French streets?
BTW, there was a strong movement to liberate the burqa-wearing masses of the truly oppressed Afghan women. I’d be curious to know if sentiments like you express against the French situation are the same for the Afgans. And if not, why not.
They’re not the same. France is, theoretically, a “free country,” in which one can choose to wear what one desires. The ‘burqa ban’ changes that.
Afghanistan under the Taliban is not remotely a free country. I support native movements in Afghanistan, Iran, and Saudi Arabia to shake off required clothing. I do not, however, support foreign movements to liberate “those poor Muslim women.” Any realistic movement with the hopes of success needs to originate from within a country.
15.07.2010Dweller
Western converts, and I’ve known quite a few, often tend toward what they see as ‘the most correct’ aspects of a religion. Simply put, when converting go sunnah (http://www.ahlalhdeeth.com/vbe/showthread.php?t=6682). That would make logical sense in any context. And, my experience again, converts are often “converted” by those from the countries you mention, where niqaab is the custom.
The idea that you proffer that you either accept personal religious freedom or not is specious. What a religion mandates can be called into question when the society in which it operates deems its tenets to be against those of that society. I pointed to female genital mutilation as one particular problem that while not wholly connected to Islam, does have some connection there. And I’m sure you concur it is a problem.
But that’s not really the point. Religions can mandate their followers to do things that are against the beliefs of a society. That brings the society and the followers of that religion into conflict. This is well-known and surely part of the root of the founding of nations such as Israel, Pakistan, etc. These are nations where religious followers are able to find parity with society and so worship as their religion mandates without societal friction.
When the followers of David Koresh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Koresh) in Texas found they needed guns and had a desire to fight the government, something had to happen – society and religion were in conflict and society via its government reacted (with terrible consequences it must be said). It is far too simplistic to state that society has to accept religious freedom whole cloth. Religious freedom is a principle and as such it evolves based upon societal mores/norms. When the religion or the society comes into conflict, as is occurring here, there is evolution.
So, I take issue with your generalization.
You take issue with the evolution in France. I cannot say that I do not entirely; simply that to dismiss it is a mistake. It is one solution and may not be wholly right or wrong. Time will tell. The idea that the women will face trouble at home is a curious side road to travel. These women can do as they like at home, behind closed doors. And as I’m sure you are aware, they are not wearing niqaab at home. I’m not sure what trouble you see – that they will face punishment because when they leave the house they are forced to follow the laws of France or pay a fiscal penalty? I agree; that is possible. The French law seeks to cover that end of the bet as well. Again, how well will it work? It is not clear but I’m sure there will be problems, as it is clearly conflict.
One other side note: I didn’t want to argue the efficacy of hibjab/niqab precisely because it remains debatable. But pointing to areas where people feel it is right/wrong/etc. highlights the point that there are other places where they do not. And that simply highlights the point that it is a custom more so than a religious mandate. Kippa do not fit this comparison so clearly for instance. Simply put, I think you would have to agree that niqaab wearing is not a universally accepted/mandated part of Islam – some think it is, some not. This makes it more of a custom but that side-steps the points made above so I will go no further.
The final points you make about the freedom of France vs. what is happening in Afghanistan are largely covered above, but my point is that ‘freedom’ is being used here, by you, far too simplistically. Personal freedoms have limits even in free societies. Religious freedoms do as well. The limits are determined by societies and from the conflict comes evolution.
As I said before, you don’t like this evolution in France. I am not so sure. It is a social experiment and it will be interesting to see in 6-12 months how it plays out. I certainly do not want it to cause the women it affects any harm. But I think that the spirit of the law here is to try and counter just that. You think it won’t work. I think the change it brings may be far more complex and, at least for me studying all this, far more interesting.
15.07.2010Jillian
I see your issue with my overgeneralization; I’m still curious as to why you think it’s acceptable for white men to impose decisions on women (as has been done throughout history).
I pointed to female genital mutilation as one particular problem that while not wholly connected to Islam, does have some connection there. And I’m sure you concur it is a problem.
There is correlation, but not causation, from Islam to female genital mutilation. You cannot compare it to niqaab. One is most certainly harmful, damaging, and done to minors. The other is debateably damaging, but can be reversed at any time and is usually done only by adult women.
Simply put, I think you would have to agree that niqaab wearing is not a universally accepted/mandated part of Islam – some think it is, some not. This makes it more of a custom but that side-steps the points made above so I will go no further.
I completely agree that niqaab is not a universally accepted or mandated part of Islam (whereas I think hijab is accepted as part of Islam by the vast majority of Muslims, whether they wear it or not).
I’m guessing, from your comments and IP address, that you are an American male. You may or may not be white, but that’s somewhat irrelevant. In any case, you and I, along with Nicolas Sarkozy, and the mostly white French lawmakers, are not in the best position to decide what is best for Muslim women in France. Who is? Muslim women in France, individually.
That is where I take issue. Europe seems intent on “fixing” Muslim immigrants, whether by banning niqaab or “unsightly” minarets from their skylines. In my view, niqaab is a terrible thing when forced. When not forced, it is yet another thing I dislike. But I do not think it is remotely comparable to genital mutilation or the Branch Davidians.
15.07.2010Daniel Jones
Societies definitely have the right to legislate in a way that defends or advances their preferred values and way of life.
In this case, it seems France has chosen to legislate one value at the cost of another. The value of female empowerment over the values of personal and religious freedom. It’s iffy as to whether the policy really advances female empowerment (I would say no). But it definitely contradicts personal and religious values.
I certainly don’t see the comparison between this policy decision and actions taken to address Koresh or female genital mutilation. If women are cooking meth, abusing children, or mutilating genitals under their burqas, I could see banning the burqa simply as a preventative measure. But that would be a policy enacted to prevent an undesirable secondary behavior – not a criminalization of the primary behavior. The analogy doesn’t work.
15.07.2010Jillian
If we’re going to legislate in favor of women’s empowerment and health, then can we please ban breast implants? Not only do they put women’s lives in unnecessary danger, they uphold a particularly vicious form of patriarchy that holds women’s bodies to an unattainable standard.
My guess is that Mrs. Sarkozy wouldn’t go for that, though.
15.07.2010Daniel Jones
That is such a good point, I have no additional comment.
I wish someone could explain the French to me.
15.07.2010Dweller
I’ll take your response point-by-point:
I’m not sure where you read me say anything like “white men should impose decisions on women.” If I wrote that in there somewhere, I’m sorry, for I surely do not think it. No, what I said was society determines what is right. The legislature of France is elected (and is not wholly composed of white men – take a quick peek and you’ll see) by the society to do what is right. If society disagrees, the representatives are not re-elected. In this instance, these representatives believe that this is what is right for them. So, my point is, not living there, allow this society to work. The choices they make I may not agree with or wholly understand (from their perspective) but as it is a free society doing its best to represent, they are able to make choices and live with those results.
As I noted, mutilation is only correlated, but you go further to suggest that one is damaging while the other is not… that it is easily reversed. I don’t want to go too far down this path, but that too is not wholly true, is it? Wouldn’t you agree that those women that you felt were oppressed in Afghanistan were damaged by their experience? I’m sure you know that there are women living in free western societies that are experiencing much of the same oppression by their spouse/father. These women do exist and they are being damaged – sometimes physically but clearly mentally. Don’t brush things off with a generalization because I made a correlation here. I simply didn’t want to get too far out into the weeds. And I offer these not as analogies but extreme examples within the same sphere to broaden the thinking here.
As to your final points, I’m of two minds. First of all, my ethnicity or IP address is irrelevant to my opinion.
I’m not forcing my views on anyone, merely exploring ideas with you. What is occurring in France is happening because religion and society have come into conflict. The people of France operate in a democracy and majority rule. Minorities have rights, but society determines the limits for all things. I’m making the point that this decision may or may not be the right one, but clearly they have the right to make it. Their government is representative (and not as white as you’d suggest) and is expressing the views of the majority. I do not believe what is being done can be so neatly and clearly construed as punishment of these women. Surely the spirit of it is to prevent the type of control I veered off and mentioned.
But I do agree that the idea of ‘fixing’ Muslim immigrants or anyone for that matter is a problem. And I think your point is rooted in the fear of the right in France that clearly would like to eliminate the ‘other’ by whatever means possible. That is clearly a problem. And I would guess that you think laws such as this become weapons in the hands of those that wish to do just that. You may be right. But this is part of the evolution and it can be ugly.
I think the key to all of this is the idea of assimilation. As the world becomes more and more of a global community and immigrants span the world over the idea of assimilation within a society has really become a hot button. Societies expect that individuals or groups that become a part of the whole will respect the desires of the whole. But a) that is not always the case as some groups/individuals simply will not and b) it is a process, an evolution and as such takes time.
Your fear seems rooted in the idea that these women will suffer because of this legislation and to some degree. I admit, I do not think that will be the case, at least not to the degree you think it will. If I did, I might lean in your general direction. What I do think is that this is an interesting example of the conflicts inherent in assimilation and in the evolution of a pluralistic society. I’m not so quick to call them right or wrong because I see them as part of the process of the principle of freedom.
15.07.2010Jillian
Let’s step back a moment; I think we’re both focusing on details a bit too much.
The bigger picture is this: One either wishes, or does not wish, face veils to go away. I would personally rather see them go away everywhere, whereas I imagine there are some who don’t really care, but just wish they’d get the hell out of France.
In the case of the latter, a ban seems fairly effective. A ban takes burqa-wearing women off the streets, and into their homes, perhaps out of the country. For some, it might simply end the practice altogether.
In the case of the former, there’s the risk that such bans will only further alienate a community that already feels alienated in nearly every aspect of life, from employment (remember that study that found that men with Arab names were having a hard time getting hired, regardless of credentials?) to education (girls who want to wear the simple headscarf cannot do so in school). The end result could go a few different ways, but there exists a very real risk that it will radicalize elements of a population that already has very few reasons to like their host country.
What do you think of that situation?
You make a lot of good points in the above comment, but I can’t let this one slide by:
Their government is representative (and not as white as you’d suggest) and is expressing the views of the majority. I do not believe what is being done can be so neatly and clearly construed as punishment of these women. Surely the spirit of it is to prevent the type of control I veered off and mentioned.
Surely? I don’t think so. We’re talking about a country that just sixty years ago still occupied, with varying degrees of brutality, some of the countries their Muslim citizens originally came from. I think you’re giving France far too much credit.
15.07.2010Dweller
Personally, I have no issue with headscarves (particularly hijab) but I see and understand that there are some societal issues with full-face coverings in terms of identity, etc. Free societies are struggling on this point – how do you deal with someone ‘hidden’. But there are those that are exploiting the issue for other purposes, no doubt.
It’s all part of this assimilation issue. I’ve been curious to see how the U.S. – with its long history of immigrants and their assimilation struggles – seems to be doing a bit better (at least up to a point) with Muslim assimilation than much of Europe. Honestly, I think it has to do with the religious bent at the root of U.S. society that doesn’t exist so definitively in Europe.
But to your point of ‘won’t it push them away and radicalize them’ I’d say: perhaps, for a time. But it’s hard to really know. Islam has to some degree existed in a vacuum (unchecked by outside ideas) where many leaders wanted nothing to do with the West. Yet now, followers of these leaders find themselves in the West. What that’s meant, IMHO, is that because this religion has not gone through the evolution of a pluralistic society (in the broadest, most modern sense), they’ve not been leavened for the greater good. They serve only themselves, as is the nature of a religion. And that will have to change, as the religions that came before have had to change, in order to be part of a pluralistic society.
There may be some beating of chest and some real bloodshed along the way. But it has to happen. The doors once closed, are now open, and Islam will need to evolve. It can and will evolve in its own way, but the stasis that it’s really, frankly enjoyed, due to isolation cannot continue forever. Followers will evolve their faith as they are exposed to new ideas. And clearly Islam is a faith strong enough to grow with the evolution.
But the whole process internally and externally may not be pretty. I would surmise that you think this is going to be an ugly part. I’m not so sure, but maybe I’m looking at different things.
As to your fears of France (and its right), I’m not so Naïve as to think this law comes from purely from good intentions. But it is rooted, at least in word, in the idea of preventing oppression. I know that’s clearly not the whole of it, but it is part. My point: regardless of the hidden intents of some on board, this is the choice of the French people and they will have to live with the results of their choice; they are free people doing as they choose. Though I’m certain there will be problems along the way, I think it may spark some of the evolution I mentioned and might produce good results.
To me, I suppose, I’m glad on one level to see challenges put before anything unchallenged. I like the change because I’m not satisfied with the status quo.
15.07.2010Jillian
I too am extremely interested in the question of assimilation; when I used to teach in Morocco, I had a lot of young students who thought, likely due to television and film, that they’d face more racism in the US than in France or elsewhere in Europe (where most of them had been, or even lived). A few years later, I’ve heard from a couple who’ve come to the US; unsurprisingly, they find it a lot easier to fit in here. I think your hypothesis about religiosity is correct; I think it may also have something to do with the demographics of those who emigrate here and the communities that they find upon arriving.
In any case, thank you for your insight. Apologies if I came off as brash in the beginning; given the usual types of comments I get, I am often on auto-defense.
16.07.2010Lynn
When someone compares genital mutilation or plastic surgery with women wearing the burka, you’re mixing apples with oranges.
As I wrote on my blog, (To Burka or Not to Burka, That is the Question) when you begin to take away the rights of one, you begin to take away the rights of all. When you no longer have the right to wear a piece of cloth, where does that lead to? Will they next ban a nun’s habit even if she chooses to wear one, and will it no longer be all right for a Jewish man to wear a yarmulke in public?
The deeper lying problem in France, and other European countries, is not assimulation into a host society, it is finally coming to terms with a society that is no longer homogeneous as these countries once were, but rather accepting the fact that these Muslims were born and raised here, are citizens and now a part of their population. Therefore, there is no “going back home” they are home!
19.07.2010Rachel
There is no oppression what so ever by wearing a niqab. I am an American converted muslim and CHOOSE to wear my niqab, and i would never go back! It’s a protection, its a pureness, and it is something that is beautiful that my husband only sees me. But the only reason we cover is to please our Lord. What is wrong with that? You are almost naked in your picture, and you think you can point your finger? Why do you want to share yourself with the world?If anything, I think we should be MORE respected to limit ourselves from the daily crap we take, yet we still do it just for GOD. I converted at age 17, and met my husband just two years ago, just so you know the whole conversion was my choice fully, as well as niqab. If you are christian, just so you know– you should be covering your hair as well. The bible states that. FYI. Don’t be so biased, and if you don’t agree, keep your rude opinion to yourself because we niqabi’s are happy. Islam brings a peace which you would never feel unless you are muslim– so i understand. Have a wonderful life. Learn about Islam, and about what you say before you think you have a right to judge. Who are you?!
19.07.2010Rachel
There is no oppression what so ever by wearing a niqab. I am an American converted muslim and CHOOSE to wear my niqab, and i would never go back! It’s a protection, its a pureness, and it is something that is beautiful that my husband only sees me. But the only reason we cover is to please our Lord. What is wrong with that? You are almost naked in your picture, and you think you can point your finger? Why do you want to share yourself with the world?If anything, I think we should be MORE respected to limit ourselves from the daily crap we take, yet we still do it just for GOD. I converted at age 17, and met my husband just two years ago, just so you know the whole conversion was my choice fully, as well as niqab. If you are christian, just so you know– you should be covering your hair as well. The bible states that. FYI. Don’t be so biased, and if you don’t agree, keep your rude opinion to yourself because we niqabi’s are happy. Islam brings a peace which you would never feel unless you are muslim– so i understand. Have a wonderful life. Learn about Islam, and about what you say before you think you have a right to judge. I mean who are you?!
19.07.2010Jillian
Did you actually read the post, Rachel? I was defending your right to wear niqaab, regardless of how much I disagree with it in theory. Incidentally, how about you tell me where in the Qur’an or hadith it’s stated as a requirement?
And no, I’m not a Christian, so I don’t care what the Bible says.
25.07.2010gregorylent
makes me think a huge fashion hit will be masks
28.07.2010Mary
Women in much of the Muslim world wear niqabs otherwise they could be killed or tortured. We have seen and heard of this by reporters who were able to go to these countries and inform and report this to the public. Much of the women in the free world are doing this not because they are pure, but it appears more to cause a rise and get attention, or they have been brain washed. Then there are the women who wear the headscarf also stating modesty, and yet they have tons of makeup on and tight jeans — they are dressed very provocatively — no modesty here — appears hypocritical.
I as most citizens believe that everyone in public should show their face — it used to be when someone hid their face it was a cover up to commit a crime. This is for the safety of everyone.
Thank you.