Comments on: On “Otherness”

By: I’m more “other” there than here. « 760 Days in Morocco

I’m more “other” there than here. « 760 Days in Morocco — Tue, 29 Sep 2009 01:12:46 +0000

[...] Jillian C. York, On “Otherness” [...]

By: The Lounsbury

The Lounsbury — Tue, 08 Sep 2009 15:11:28 +0000

Well, “Oscar et Lucinda” my “staggering depth of ignorance” comes from not using the word “tribal” in a generic catch all sense. The Fassi families are not tribal – indeed that you use that as an example simply means that you either don’t understand the concept or are knee jerking. The Fassi clans are most certainly oligarchies, but not tribal. The two concepts are rather different. AS for your personal dislike of me, eh, I am positively wounded…. Carry on then.

By: Oscar and Lucinda

Oscar and Lucinda — Tue, 08 Sep 2009 12:53:05 +0000

I find “lounsbury” rather an irritating example of the arrogant pseudo-intellectual self-important “I have extensive experience, as a resident and arabophone.” fool. Knowledge is one thing, wisdom something else. His contribution to this interesting debate adds nothing but his desire to be centre stage. I have read his and his associated blogs and find little of value.

His lack of appreciation of “tribalism” particularly in relationship to Morocco displays a staggering depth of ignorance. Fez, as an example, is dominated by “the Fassi families”. The parts of Syria we know well are also particularly tribal. This tribalism does make “the other” an outsider and understandably so.

On the other hand, Jillian, you appear to have grasped the central points particularly well. My apologies for my poor English.

By: The Lounsbury

The Lounsbury — Tue, 08 Sep 2009 12:50:16 +0000

Regarding Syria…. more surface diversity?

Well, it depends on what kind you mean. Religious, certainly there are Xians of various flavours, as well as odd groups that are neither here nor there (druze, etc). Linguistic diversity…. strikes me as not that different than Morocco, but far less ‘racial’ diversity. On the other hand, being Pale & European looking stands out less. Which may be something that impacted you.

I would submit there is a great difference between living somewhere for, let us say 5 plus months just to pull a number out of the hat, and a visit.

By: Jillian

Jillian — Tue, 08 Sep 2009 11:38:40 +0000

Boston may not be largely white, but it’s no New York. Unless you go to Jamaica Plain, or Roxbury, or Dorchester, or Mattapan you are likely to be surrounded by white people, with a few others thrown in. I’ve lived in the area for oh, 21 years of my life, and I can tell you that despite stats, it’s still a largely segregated city. Knowing where Anas lives, and the routes he takes, and the areas he occupies, I’m not surprised that he hasn’t run into much non-whiteness.

Lounsbury, another aspect that came to me last night – specifically in regard to Syria – is the familiarity with foreignness in general. Again, I have less experience there, but there is far more “surface diversity” if you will, than in Morocco, and obvious ethnic and religious diversity, hence the feeling of a cosmopolitan-ness (at least in Damascus), and hence me not feeling like a complete outsider, at least in the short term.

By: The Lounsbury

The Lounsbury — Tue, 08 Sep 2009 10:49:40 +0000

Is this directed to me: “I find it odd the you lumped 3 very different countries together in one large generalization. care to explain more? what’s particularly making it difficult to fit in each country? was your generalization based on some facts that you didn’t mention in your comment? or was it because naming random MENA countries would give a sense of validity to your argument?”?

If it is, rather simply, three countries in which I have extensive experience, as a resident and arabophone. Need any more “validity” mate?

BTW, Boston is not largely white, perhaps where you are and what you are experiencing it is a wee bit more ‘white’ than New York. NYC is ~40 odd per cent white (per American census category), Boston ~50 odd per cent. Not massively different.

Regarding tribal mentality etc., yes indeed, that has an impact – certainly in Jordan it is bloody tedious, but the particular experience of a Jillian York in a Morocco (where tribalism is a peripheral phenomena, in particular relative to Leb Land or the Hashemite confetti), there is no small degree of post-colonial hangover in relations with “Europeans.” This is perhaps a bit foreign to Machreq insofar as unlike the Maghreb, ex Israel-Palestine, there wasn’t real settler colonialism, contra the French method in the Maghreb.

On the other hand, the tribalism still prevalent in the Sham rather does present other kinds of barriers.

By: Jillian

Jillian — Tue, 08 Sep 2009 03:38:40 +0000

I would dare argue that, if Anas’s premise is correct, than the more recent European colonization is hardly the instigating force.

By: relament

relament — Tue, 08 Sep 2009 02:27:31 +0000

Anas Qtiesh
If the “tribal mentality” is to always be alarmed by the presence of guests, from whence does this ‘alarm’ arise if not the trepidation assumed in a post colonial environment?
You may have had a different experience than the above article “On otherness” because you expected xenophobia.

By: Anas Qtiesh

Anas Qtiesh — Mon, 07 Sep 2009 16:57:49 +0000

I don’t think anyone should disavow their home country in order to be accepted into the society of another country, be they privileged or not. And what kind of privilege are we talking about here; education? wealth? a US passport? a light skin tone?
I’ve been in Boston for 3 months now and not once I felt like an outsider, I have not disavowed Syria nor I would do it later.
Youl might argue by saying that the US is based on immigrants, that is true. But Boston is largely white, compared to say.. NYC or Washington DC. Here you rarely get on the bus with an Arab, an Indian, or for that matter an African American. I came into a homogeneous mainly white community expecting to find xenophobia but I felt nothing but being welcome as a member of that community, not as an outsider or an immigrant.

In contrast, my Grandmother, now over 85, says that she has spent over 50 years in one place (my hometown Swaida) after moving out of Lebanon, and people here still mention where she came from when they refer to her. Mind you she speaks their language in the local dialect, she belongs to the same religious minority as them, yet they never made her feel the she completely belonged.

It’s not related to post colonialism, the problem is that many of us in the MENA region still have a tribal mentality in our subconscious telling us to be kind to guests, but to always be alarmed by their presence.

By: Anas Qtiesh

Anas Qtiesh — Mon, 07 Sep 2009 16:42:00 +0000

I find it odd the you lumped 3 very different countries together in one large generalization. care to explain more? what’s particularly making it difficult to fit in each country? was your generalization based on some facts that you didn’t mention in your comment? or was it because naming random MENA countries would give a sense of validity to your argument?