Comments on: Secularism ≠ Racism http://jilliancyork.com/2008/07/20/secularism-%e2%89%a0-racism/ Jillian C. York is a freelance writer and blogger. Thu, 11 Mar 2010 12:41:08 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: word http://jilliancyork.com/2008/07/20/secularism-%e2%89%a0-racism/#comment-2607 word Sun, 06 Sep 2009 06:10:38 +0000 http://jilliancyork.com/?p=124#comment-2607 I love how these ignorant commentors think they actually know what "Islam demands" of people. Also, I love how they defend French racism with "integration" arguments. What does it take to integrate into France? Is raising a family, working, paying taxes, and speaking French not enough? Is there something else you gota do? pass some special test? I love how these ignorant commentors think they actually know what “Islam demands” of people.

Also, I love how they defend French racism with “integration” arguments. What does it take to integrate into France? Is raising a family, working, paying taxes, and speaking French not enough? Is there something else you gota do? pass some special test?

]]> By: tigscums http://jilliancyork.com/2008/07/20/secularism-%e2%89%a0-racism/#comment-2289 tigscums Sat, 04 Apr 2009 06:33:25 +0000 http://jilliancyork.com/?p=124#comment-2289 хех.. вот как оказалось .. хех.. вот как оказалось ..

]]> By: Eric de Bear http://jilliancyork.com/2008/07/20/secularism-%e2%89%a0-racism/#comment-307 Eric de Bear Fri, 01 Aug 2008 04:33:22 +0000 http://jilliancyork.com/?p=124#comment-307 Jillian, Wanting to belong to one’s husband only does not imply submission. That's right, but orthodox Islam demands submission of the wife to her husband. I am not familiar with Ms Prada Bordenave, but I have seen and heard Fadela Amara, one of the leaders of the group Ni Putes Ni Soumises (Neither Sluts nor Submissives). She is of Maghrebian descent and now minister and Secrétaire d'état in charge of Politique de la Ville, or Urban Politics. She is very convincing, very impressive, and I trust her. She welcomed the ruling referring to the niqab as an oppressive patriarchical instrument no matter what the person wearing it says or thinks about it. Why do you think Ms Prada Bordenave is not trustworthy? Jillian,
Wanting to belong to one’s husband only does not imply submission. That’s right, but orthodox Islam demands submission of the wife to her husband.
I am not familiar with Ms Prada Bordenave, but I have seen and heard Fadela Amara, one of the leaders of the group Ni Putes Ni Soumises (Neither Sluts nor Submissives). She is of Maghrebian descent and now minister and Secrétaire d’état in charge of Politique de la Ville, or Urban Politics. She is very convincing, very impressive, and I trust her. She welcomed the ruling referring to the niqab as an oppressive patriarchical instrument no matter what the person wearing it says or thinks about it.
Why do you think Ms Prada Bordenave is not trustworthy?

]]> By: Jillian http://jilliancyork.com/2008/07/20/secularism-%e2%89%a0-racism/#comment-304 Jillian Wed, 30 Jul 2008 19:20:38 +0000 http://jilliancyork.com/?p=124#comment-304 Eric, that does not demonstrate what Faiza actually wants for herself. Wanting to belong to one's husband only does not imply submission. And I don't really trust Ms. Prada-Bordenave, not one bit. What she thinks of Faiza Silmi is meaningless to me. As for Saudi Arabia, looks like they're close to letting women drive, finally. Eric, that does not demonstrate what Faiza actually wants for herself. Wanting to belong to one’s husband only does not imply submission. And I don’t really trust Ms. Prada-Bordenave, not one bit. What she thinks of Faiza Silmi is meaningless to me.

As for Saudi Arabia, looks like they’re close to letting women drive, finally.

]]> By: Eric de Bear http://jilliancyork.com/2008/07/20/secularism-%e2%89%a0-racism/#comment-303 Eric de Bear Wed, 30 Jul 2008 17:30:56 +0000 http://jilliancyork.com/?p=124#comment-303 Well, the NYT writes: The Silmis say they live by a literalist interpretation of the Koran....and they cite Faiza saying: “I want to belong to my husband and my husband only.” The NYT further reports: Emmanuelle Prada-Bordenave, the government commissioner who reported to the Council of State, said Ms. Silmi’s interviews with social services revealed that “She lives in total submission to her male relatives. She seems to find this normal, and the idea of challenging it has never crossed her mind.” I find that pretty convincing because both Silmis said they observe an orthodox (if not Salafist - which they deny) version of Islam. Orthodox Islam takes the Koran literally and that means the wife has to be submissive to the husband. Therefore, whatever Karim wants Faiza has to go along with. If his wish is to go to Saudi Arabia she has to follow suit. I bet, once they go, she will say it was her own choice and that she loves being in Saudi Arabia (where she is not even allowed to drive her car by herself). Well, the NYT writes: The Silmis say they live by a literalist interpretation of the Koran….and they cite Faiza saying: “I want to belong to my husband and my husband only.” The NYT further reports: Emmanuelle Prada-Bordenave, the government commissioner who reported to the Council of State, said Ms. Silmi’s interviews with social services revealed that “She lives in total submission to her male relatives. She seems to find this normal, and the idea of challenging it has never crossed her mind.”
I find that pretty convincing because both Silmis said they observe an orthodox (if not Salafist – which they deny) version of Islam. Orthodox Islam takes the Koran literally and that means the wife has to be submissive to the husband. Therefore, whatever Karim wants Faiza has to go along with. If his wish is to go to Saudi Arabia she has to follow suit. I bet, once they go, she will say it was her own choice and that she loves being in Saudi Arabia (where she is not even allowed to drive her car by herself).

]]> By: Jillian http://jilliancyork.com/2008/07/20/secularism-%e2%89%a0-racism/#comment-295 Jillian Mon, 28 Jul 2008 03:37:20 +0000 http://jilliancyork.com/?p=124#comment-295 What's your point, Eric? That doesn't mean Faiza herself has the same dream. What’s your point, Eric? That doesn’t mean Faiza herself has the same dream.

]]> By: Eric de Bear http://jilliancyork.com/2008/07/20/secularism-%e2%89%a0-racism/#comment-294 Eric de Bear Mon, 28 Jul 2008 00:46:51 +0000 http://jilliancyork.com/?p=124#comment-294 Jillian, Check the article "A Veil Closes France’s Door to Citizenship" by KATRIN BENNHOLD in NYT, 07/19/08: Ms. Silmi’s husband, a former bus driver who says he is finding it hard to get work because of his beard, dreams of moving his family to Morocco or Saudi Arabia. Jillian,

Check the article “A Veil Closes France’s Door to Citizenship” by KATRIN BENNHOLD in NYT, 07/19/08: Ms. Silmi’s husband, a former bus driver who says he is finding it hard to get work because of his beard, dreams of moving his family to Morocco or Saudi Arabia.

]]> By: Jillian http://jilliancyork.com/2008/07/20/secularism-%e2%89%a0-racism/#comment-288 Jillian Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:03:46 +0000 http://jilliancyork.com/?p=124#comment-288 Faiza is obviously thinking of moving to Morocco? What gave you that impression? She's lived in France for EIGHT YEARS. Her children are French, she has adjusted to life there. I take issue with the French judge's assessment of her - it's clear from the media coverage that they didn't get it right the first time (it being Faiza's situation). As for the US, I'm perfectly aware that my country is not free. As for Morocco - women have more rights than you'd think. Faiza is obviously thinking of moving to Morocco? What gave you that impression? She’s lived in France for EIGHT YEARS. Her children are French, she has adjusted to life there. I take issue with the French judge’s assessment of her – it’s clear from the media coverage that they didn’t get it right the first time (it being Faiza’s situation).

As for the US, I’m perfectly aware that my country is not free.

As for Morocco – women have more rights than you’d think.

]]> By: Eric de Bear http://jilliancyork.com/2008/07/20/secularism-%e2%89%a0-racism/#comment-287 Eric de Bear Thu, 24 Jul 2008 02:19:39 +0000 http://jilliancyork.com/?p=124#comment-287 Jillian, I understood what you meant and took it just a step further. In your remark to Christian Soldier you clarified that you are in favor of any woman's right to chose whatever she wants to wear. OK, but societies take the right to define who to grant citizenship to. If, for example you are a communist the US will hardly grant citizenship to you. Worse, you won't even get a visa to visit the country of the free and the brave. If you are a US citizen you are not allowed to visit Cuba for example. So much for for the freedom of choice in that part of the world. Faiza obviously is thinking of moving to Morocco, a country where women are really struggling for equal rights. Maybe she wants to join their fight, although I doubt that very much. Jillian,

I understood what you meant and took it just a step further.

In your remark to Christian Soldier you clarified that you are in favor of any woman’s right to chose whatever she wants to wear. OK, but societies take the right to define who to grant citizenship to. If, for example you are a communist the US will hardly grant citizenship to you. Worse, you won’t even get a visa to visit the country of the free and the brave. If you are a US citizen you are not allowed to visit Cuba for example. So much for for the freedom of choice in that part of the world. Faiza obviously is thinking of moving to Morocco, a country where women are really struggling for equal rights. Maybe she wants to join their fight, although I doubt that very much.

]]> By: Jillian http://jilliancyork.com/2008/07/20/secularism-%e2%89%a0-racism/#comment-286 Jillian Wed, 23 Jul 2008 19:59:59 +0000 http://jilliancyork.com/?p=124#comment-286 Frankly, Christian Soldier, I find the Bible as troubling as the Qu'ran. Let me be clear about one thing - I am defending civil liberties, not Islam. I am defending the right of a woman to dress as she wishes, in the same way I would defend the right of a woman to have an abortion or become a stripper. I don't believe women should be led around like dogs either; I also don't believe that this particular woman is being led around. She says she made the choice to wear niqaab and to practice orthodox Islam; we may disagree with that choice, but if she did in fact choose that herself, then that is her right. Frankly, Christian Soldier, I find the Bible as troubling as the Qu’ran. Let me be clear about one thing – I am defending civil liberties, not Islam. I am defending the right of a woman to dress as she wishes, in the same way I would defend the right of a woman to have an abortion or become a stripper.

I don’t believe women should be led around like dogs either; I also don’t believe that this particular woman is being led around. She says she made the choice to wear niqaab and to practice orthodox Islam; we may disagree with that choice, but if she did in fact choose that herself, then that is her right.

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